Viridis ([info]bufo_viridis) wrote,
@ 2006-01-16 01:45:00
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Entry tags:history, politics

Oh God, not AGAIN
New York Times in an article about a certain Sidney Frank, who died, wrote again about, quote, "Polish death camp" (this time Sobibor), from which Jewish prisoners escaped during WW II.

Now, I know it's preaching to the choir w/regard to my f-list, but I'll repeat once more:

there were no Polish death camps during Second World War


however

There were German death camps within the borders of pre-war Polish state, then under the full control of the Nazis.



Especially in 1943 the territory of Poland was reduced to the areas occupied by Polish embassies and the areas on boards of the ships of Polish Navy, Marine and Air Force. If anybody knows a reliable source about a death camp on the board of Polish destroyer, bomber or consulate, do please send it to me. I'm sure world will be greatly interested in such sensational news.

For a complete clarification, Polish territories, occupied by the Germas during WW II were divided into three parts:
1. directly incorporated into Third Reich (including the city of Oswiecim, so Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration and death camp was in fact on legally German territory)
2. so called General_Government, a German administrative unit
3. zones under direct military control (in the east)

In none of these areas there existed any Polish administration, apart from the structures od the Polish Underground State, which military branch Home Army was the most powerful organisation of European resistance. Due to the obvious reasons, Polish resistance was not able to control the territory of Poland and fully prevent German (or other forces) crimes there.

General Government was not, repeat not a Polish puppet government like Vichy France. It was a purely German administrative unit and the Governor, infamous Hans_Frank was one of the twenty four chief Nazi criminals tried in Nuremberg Trials and one of the twelve sentenced to death.

ETA: Since the lie becomes truth if repeated often enough, I kindly ask every virtual passer-by to link to this page. I know I can't battle NYT, but I can do as much (or little)



(69 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]chinawolf
2006-01-16 01:57 am UTC (link)
I understand your outrage, but are you sure this isn't just a semantic problem? I mean, he could have said "the revolt in 1943 of Jewish prisoners at a death camp located in what is Polish territory again today", but I understand why he didn't - you can only disclaim your own language so much without becoming boring. Maybe he just assumed the readership of the NYT is educated enough to know that by 'Polish deathcamp' the author meant German camps located on what was Polish territory pre-war and now is Polish territory again?

When I hear something like that, I automatically assume it's a German administered place, whereever it was located. But maybe that's just due to nine years of history lessons pounding every possible cause and horrific fact of that era in German history into me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 02:21 am UTC (link)
I understand your outrage, but are you sure this isn't just a semantic problem?

Very often it is indeed a semantic problem. However it's repeated too often; and the problem is a bit too grave (nome omen) to be shrugged off as a mere semantics. For most of Europeans like you or me, the situation is clear enough and not really worth attention. Unfortunately there are people less acquainted with history, who'll once hear a phrase "Polish death camp", some other time "six milions murdered Jews" and they'll add them together - it'll be even hard to blame them: the responsibility is on the side of the misinforming journalists.

So yes, I'm almost sure that the phrase in this very article - an obituary of sorts - is but a sloppiness of the journalist. I'm also sure that the Polish consul, who logged an official protest supposes it too. Unfortunately I cannot - and he cannot too - assume that NYT readers are educated enough: from my personal experience I know they are not :(

There are areas, where utmost care must be turned to the precise wording. Also, during 50 years of communism, commie gov't did nothing to defend good name of Poland and much to villify and slander the greatest of our heroes (not only soldier-heroes, but also civilians, those who help, not just those who killed). When others - I won't point with finger, but you can easily guess - were building legends of Resistance, we were left aside, labelled "traditional anti-semites" etc.

So yes, you're right and I said it myself, that to the most of you, if not all, the whole thing is obvious and needing no comment. Yet at the same time, it's an issue when the comment must be given, if only for the sake of possible one-time lurker.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]patagonian, 2006-01-16 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chinawolf, 2006-01-16 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]patagonian, 2006-01-16 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-16 11:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snorkackcatcher, 2006-01-16 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-16 11:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chinawolf, 2006-01-16 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-16 08:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-16 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]novin_ha, 2006-01-17 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-17 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]novin_ha, 2006-01-17 01:45 am UTC

[info]aphrodeia
2006-01-16 02:25 am UTC (link)
Your posts are absolutely fascinating to me, and I don't tell you this nearly often enough. I'm absolutely horrid with history - I've learned (or been reminded of) a great deal through your journal. Thanks for this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:36 am UTC (link)
I'm glad they're of some use - and hope there will be fascinating on less morbid subjects...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]zoepaleologa
2006-01-16 09:45 am UTC (link)
Linked. How true, and thanks for posting.

On the wall of this room, I have a copy of a painting by Dame Laura Knight of the Nuremberg Trials. Hans Frank sits in the front row of the dock, sixth from the top (it is a sideways view).

In this remarkable picture, the background is not a courtroom, but smoking ruins, open mass graves and the smoking crematoria. I've tried to find an online version, but no such luck.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. Havne't seen the painting and indeed it seems it's not popular with internet art databases - not that I'm surprised given the gloomy contents.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ziamoon
2006-01-16 10:11 am UTC (link)
At the bottom of the page there is a contact us, which gives you the opportunity to send an e-mail:


I suggest you rectify your insult to the Polish people and the Polish state in your article on Sidney Frank. As anybody with a sense of history knows, it were the Nazi Germans that made and operated the death camps based in occupied Poland.

Sincerely



GRRRRRR!!!!!!! What a bunch of despicable nitwits

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:54 am UTC (link)
Tnank you for the suggestion - I did it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]roseofaurora
2006-01-16 03:49 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for putting this up. I've posted a link in my journal.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Thank you!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fishity
2006-01-16 07:51 pm UTC (link)
Here via [info]zoepaleologa's link.

You're perfectly right - even if it's just a semantic problem, it might lead people with little knowledge of history into thinking there were Polish death camps. I'm German and maybe therefore extra-sensible when it comes to correct (or correctly worded) historical information. I'll try to remember linking to this in my next journal update.

Thank you!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Thank you - and the interesting thing is that you're third German who offer support - and you of all people may feel offended...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]roseofaurora
2006-01-16 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Stole this link from [info]patagonian and wanted to say that I completely agree and I'm glad you've posted this up for us all to pass around. Thanks!

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've seen this kind of mistake published in the media. What makes it worse is people of little knowledge of the true facts approaching me and asking me if my grandparents were Nazis because I am of Polish descent (This actually happened to me when I was about 12 years old!). Needless to say such situations leave me feeling shocked and disgusted by the careless way information such as this is handled and spread among the average people. You'd think the NYT would have more prudence than that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:35 pm UTC (link)
asking me if my grandparents were Nazis because I am of Polish descent

Gosh - I enountered some history mistakes and misinterpretations, but nothing quite so bad :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]roseofaurora, 2006-01-17 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mehitobel_ny, 2006-01-17 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roseofaurora, 2006-01-17 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-17 10:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-17 10:44 pm UTC

[info]fpb
2006-01-19 03:08 am UTC (link)
You'd think the NYT would have more prudence than that.
Until you realize that the New Jerk Dimes cares a lot more for PC and political dogma than for truth - that, in fact, it constantly and deliberately tries to subvert even unimportant fact merely in order to show its sympathy with certain groups - you will always be surprised. The New Jerk Dimes tells lies. That is what it does. Here is one instance, where there was absolutely no point in the lie except to prove oneself clever and to disparage someone's sense of her own nationality: http://www.livejournal.com/users/fpb/128006.html

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mme_de_bergerac
2006-01-16 10:04 pm UTC (link)
linked trough [info]atlantel,
posted on my lj...
Let's give the NYT a run for his money...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for linking!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lied_ohne_worte
2006-01-16 11:16 pm UTC (link)
I was linked here by [info]dreamer_marie.

Being German, I of course know this. But I can understand that this kind of wording can cause misunderstandings with people who are not so acquainted with European history.

And when it comes to the crimes of the Nazis it is particulary important that those who write about them are careful with their words.

One thing that can be found from time to time in German media and often causes people to send letters and protest is the careless mentioning of "relations between Germans and Jews", referring to Jews who are or were actually German citizens of Jewish religion. When someone uses the above expression, he shows that he really understood nothing about history.

I'll link to your post, if that is OK for you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-16 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Your linking will be most appreciated, thank you.

Abd you make very important point about relations between different groups - and the more to east, the more complicated they are, as ethnic mosaic was greater and so were identity problems.
Bah, if I was to list prominent Poles of Jewish origin/Jews of Poland the list would surpass the allowed number of characters in a L_J post :) And most of them were better Polish citizens than many ethnic Poles - the same could have been told about German Jews, I think.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-17 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-19 10:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 10:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-19 10:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 10:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-19 11:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-19 10:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-19 11:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-19 10:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 11:00 am UTC

[info]dreamer_marie
2006-01-17 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Yep, that was the same problem in France at the end of the XIXth century with the Dreyfus affair: could a Jewish officer really be a good French citizen? Turned out, he could... It was an Alsatian who had bribed the cleaning lady to take the blue top secret paper out of the waste-paper basket to sell it to God knows who (you can never trust an Alsation. It's all the sauerkraut :-))

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-17 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreamer_marie, 2006-01-17 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lied_ohne_worte, 2006-01-17 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 02:56 am UTC

[info]novin_ha
2006-01-17 12:24 am UTC (link)
Hear, hear, bloody hear.

How dim can those people get?
And why isn;t the government doing something about this?! yeah, I know.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-17 02:04 am UTC (link)
Actually our consulate has logged an official complaint. But there's 50+ years worth of propaganda to catch up with...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]novin_ha, 2006-01-17 10:01 am UTC

[info]neigedens
2006-01-17 04:00 am UTC (link)
(here via [info]dreamer_marie's and [info]fpb's links)

Had I read the article I probably would not have questioned the wording of the phrase, as I, and I think most other people, would hear the words "death camp" and "WWII" and would automatically thinks of Nazi camps. However, I understand why you'd be offended by an implication, albeit in this case oblique and most likely unintentional on the part of the author, that kind of makes it seem as if the Poles had a lesser part in the resistance to the Germans, which is very unfair. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't a lot of Poles used as slave labor by the Germans? I know a Holocaust survivor who was smuggled food by Polish facotry workers, which actually saved him from (greater) severe malnutrition.

(Completely off-topic, but that Sidney Frank? What a pimp. Now I want a bright green suit like that.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-17 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't a lot of Poles used as slave labor by the Germans?
Unfortunately you're not wrong: the number goes into hundreds of thousands - or if counted the people employed into forced labour without being deported - into millions.
Bah, my grandfather was deported and survived the camp only by sheer luck (a German woman took her out of the camp, where people hardly ever survived more then a few months, to her house, as a gardener and general help. Apparently he reminded her of her son who was somewhere on the battlefield...).
I need to take a tram and go for 15 min to arrive to the former labour and concentration campsite...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sunbeamj
2006-01-17 05:58 am UTC (link)
Hi -

I was clicking links and found this. When I saw, "there were no Polish death camps", I was highly confused, thinking, "Then... what was Auschwitz and others like it?" Then I continued reading and saw what you were trying to say. ^^; Ah. So that's it. I guess I've gone to the U.S. Holocaust museum enough times, and actually been to a concentration camp and its museum, and learned enough about WWII in history to not make the mistake that Poland was allying itself with Germany, but Germany taking control of its areas, but I can see where others would make the mistake.

I shall gladly link to this and spread the education. ^_^

♥, Stephanie

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-17 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for linking! US Holocaust Museum has a very good website, where one clearly see how the camps were placed - most of them in the Eastern Europe, for obvious, economical reasons. The Mseum is also very careful in proper naming :)
And yes, we were very muh not German allies - as a trivia I may add we were te only European nation not to have its own SS troops.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-19 11:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 01:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-19 04:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 05:26 pm UTC
Re-posted comment, which caused troubles :) - [info]bufo_viridis, 2006-01-19 08:23 pm UTC
Re: Re-posted comment, which caused troubles :) - [info]fpb, 2006-01-19 08:44 pm UTC
Sure, I'll link...
[info]dark_mage_girl
2006-01-30 08:24 am UTC (link)
Here from the journal of [info]lied_ohne_worte. Thou hast commanded me to link, and I must therefore obey.

Seriously, though, I found your article (is that what you'd call it?) interesting and very to-the-point. I've never thought that Polish people = Nazis, but then again, I was a History student who did a hell of a lot of extra reading for her subject and got A-plusses in the WW II unit. Other people may not be so...enlightened. So I will link, because I, too, want the stupid to stop.

~Jay~

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Sure, I'll link...
[info]bufo_viridis
2006-01-31 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I know the matter will be clea to most of the people - but I also know how badly I'm informed about different countries, so I presume, somebody can be misinformed too :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sure, I'll link... - [info]dark_mage_girl, 2006-02-03 05:30 am UTC

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